Is taekwondo useless on the street?
http://blogs.kansascity.com/crime_scene/2007/04/muggers_pick_on.html
Wow! Would taking the guy down and putting him an armbar have worked better? Or would he have been stabbed when he was on the ground?
James
In a street situation there are to many variables to say weather I would kick or not. When you have two attackers you have to consider the armed one first if you can or use the unarmed one as a weapon or shield until you can disable him. Certainly Tae Kwan Do is a valid and proved system for self defense You have read my position on this before and we have had our students prove this a few times over the years in real life situations as described in the article you have in the link. We teach that weapons (knife or gun, rifle or shotgun) should always be taken up and over in front of you never down or across in front of yourself.
edit:
Thanks Judomofo. Sound advice, realistic also. There was a story in the local paper here in Newark Delaware where an armed (hand gun) guy was disarmed in a bar after robbing a couple people and attempting a pistol wiping of another patron. So training is better than no training. Sure let them have the money, but that is no guarantee that is all they will try to take. Nor is another hand gun always the best response. Traning and experience hopfully gives a cool enough head to weigh the options quickly and detached enough to do the best responce you can and by the grace of God the outcome will be good or as good as it could be.
James your absolutly right about luck. The Sage once said Luck favors the prepaired.
Pugpaws as you know from experience no one can predict what a hypothetical situation may call fore. Some times life throws you a curve. Those of us who train will have a better chance at survival. Those who don't leave it strictly to chance. Even those of us who train, only a few will see the elephant. Untill they do like you have, only then will you know what to do. Some times you run, somtimes you make a stand,sometimes you give them what the want. Every situation is different and only the one involved at the time can make a choice. Confidence from training will give options and opertunity to chose the apropreiate responce.
Bradda very funny I like your sence of humor.
Any method can be effective on the street .If you have any doubts about what you are learning then you will likely fail in such an attack.It's not doubts about what you are learning but about yourself.Some people even with the best instruction can't get rid of those doubts.
He probably didn't hesitate but acted without getting into any stance or pose and caught them both by surprise and surprise is the ultimate strikers weapon in street confrontations/muggings.
The part that bothered me is him chasing after the guy with the knife.Corner a rat especially an armed one and with the element of surprise gone he may have found himself in serious trouble.
JUDOMOFO makes a good point about police getting stabbed in arrests of armed assailants.Cornering rats is their job not yours.The procedural ethics we force police to follow make them vulnerable to SURPRISE.
I liked the book by the woman who was a black belt, got assaulted, found her training wasn't enough & developed a process for women to follow. I don't remember the name of the book, but she does lectures or did years ago. She worked with the police on it.
She starts with how to avoid the situation. For instance, throwing the money at them, but to the side, so as they go to reach for it, you can start running the other way.
She does have a few simple techniques for close quarters. However one of her stories of success is of surprise. A woman approached by a gang, took her baby tossed him on top of the nearby bushes (hedge) and started acting crazy. The gang was so surprised they ran.
For someone who's not trained in any way like me, it's very good. Even for someone trained, it gives prethought out images of situations that can arise & ideas of what to do. That seems a worthwhile addition to the training. (I've given enough details that if you find the book, you'll know it's the right now. The name is buried in my file cabinet)
It depends on what is perceived as a "kick".
If you asked this question to someone personally, and asked to demonstrate, you might see a "kick".
In one situation, I raised my knee to deliver a kick and drove the point of the knife into my knee. As soon as I withdrew the kick, I delivered a crescent kick and kicked the knife into the guys face. He ran. No one knew that I was stabbed until I started to walk away and the blood was dripping.
This event taught me a lesson and I reconfigured my whole kicking method. I was taught to bring up my knee very high and release the lower leg to kick. Most "traditional" schools teach this.
For me, raising my knee means I am going to knee someone. Kicking is completely different for me and in how I teach it.
It is useful in a mugging where a weapon is involved but the shape and form of the kick determines whether or not it will be effective or whether you get stabbed in the knee.
Armbar would have been useless due to multiple opponents. Who knows what could have happpened to him then.
Taekwando is not useless on the street, it's the practitioner!
In a mugging situation, I'd do whatever comes to mind which means obviously what I been practicing. Kicks are useful depending on who you fight and the angle your in. We usually kick low in the Wing Chun system since it's more useful, Idk about a kick to the chest though.
But kicks are a good follow up with punches if you are stepping in to the mugger. But there are times when I face untrained fighters whom grab my kicks when we play fight, so sometimes it may not be the best idea.
In fighting, everything's a weapon. Your hands, elbows, shoulders, hips, knees, feet, head (7 star fighting). Your always able to use these no matter how caught up you are. Somebody grabs your leg? Punch him or kick him with the other. Someone takes you to the ground? Use your hip movement to try to get out. Get in a choke? Elbow them. Somebody kicks you? KICK THEM BACK!
There's much more variations to this.
Hope I Helped!
James you asked a hard one. there are so many possible variables tat could change things quickly. Personally I might kick, but would be more inclined to do other things. If a good opportunity to kick to low targets, like the inside of the thigh with my shin, inside of the knee with a stomp kick, ...etc. I might. Judomofo makes good points as you do. I have always felt that anyone facing a knife is lucky if he escapes without getting hurt seriously. In my early years of training two guys came into my dojo. One of them back me up against a wall. He had a knife. I attempted to talk him out of attacking. I ended up getting a nasty cut on my right forearm, before taking control. There was a lot of blood, mostly mine. Things like that have a profound effect on you. I've had guns pulled on me. Although it is an uncomfortable feeling, I still get more uncomfortable if someone pulls a knife. Guess this question will stir up much debate. I'm not sure if there is a really good clear answer as to what one should do in one of these situations. If you can't escape you just have to take things as they come.
Yes, I would kick but I would also use an arm bar or other joint lock. I wouldn't take the guy to the ground and try to get a superior position while his friend is nearby. But an arm bar or other joint lock would be used to disarm the guy with the knife. It would be used to control the situation. I could also used him for a shield until I could get within striking distance of his friend.
I believe the TKD is a great form of self defense. Personally I don't practice it. It is offered within our organization, but I prefer Shorin Ryu and jujitsu.
I don't slam MMA or BJJ, but I agree that they are not the greatest thing since sliced bread. Unless I was planning on competing in the octagon I think it would be foolish to go to the ground and get hit from behind. At least it would be foolish in the area that I grew up.
Again I am not putting down those arts. I happen to enjoy watching them. It is just not my preferred art for me to train.
Congrats for that guy...
Sounds like he got lucky... honestly I wouldn't suggest attempting to kick a guy during a mugging. Honestly it is generally not worth what little bit of cash I carry with me to resist a mugging, unless I feel my life is truly in danger... and that is why I carry...
But for every story like that.. there are stories like these:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1207048.ece
http://martialarts.com.my/community/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1089
http://www.nypost.com/seven/01142008/news/regionalnews/stab_death_accident_546630.htm
etc.etc.
I wouldn't say taking a guy down and putting him in an armbar would have worked better. What worked, worked. By the Grace of God or extreme good luck the guy had two moron attackers and he fared well.
In his case, I think he did better than if he would have attempted a disarm.
I wouldn't count one victory as the complete streetworthiness of a Martial Art. Tae Kwon Do practitioners get killed as well.
Again, keep in mind elite soldiers, pro fighters, and law enforcement officers get shot and stabbed by untrained assailants all the time. Does that mean the techniques that they learned are useless?
Whether or not people want to admit it, luck plays a pretty big factor in physical altercations in the wild.
: Yes, one guy fought off two attackers and then went to the hospital with a collasped lung.
His lack of action (i.e. pro fighting) didn't mean he was lacking in skills. I could point out other active pro fighters who were nearly killed in bar stabbings (Lee Murray would be a great example).
The point is this guy was lucky, people far more skilled than him have died, and people far less skilled then him have lived. He decided to act rather than give up whatever material posession he was carrying. Kudos to him, but what he did was also incredibly ill advised.
There are many people whose "skill" can get them killed, the fact this guy chose to act instead of just give up his wallet is a good example of how confidence can be your enemy in light of not being trained. This story could have just as easily read "Man is stabbed to death while being mugged".
While I see the point you are trying to make, I think these types of articles are dangerous. They don't show me the proof of an art, they show me the luck someone experienced. It is newsworthy, because IT IS NOT THE NORM.
Trust me, there are news articles about all sorts of thwarted mugging attempts:
http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=64873
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,338114,00.html
http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=191169
http://www.mtexpress.com/vu_breaking_story.php?bid=5187
http://www.tonyrogers.com/news/senior_mugger.htm
Apparently if you read the news, all you need to thwart muggers is to be a crotchedy old man or woman, or a young kid.
Not listed here is the thousands of successful muggings, and stabbings that occur daily on people of all backgrounds and age ranges.
What bothers me is this guy is going to go into his dojang, or open another dojang and attempt to cash in on this luck, claiming it was all based on his TKD skill, he will even teach "Anti-mugging tactics" and TKD practioners will point to this article about how it can handle "multiple armed attackers".
Not that i have a thing against TKD, or any art, as you well know. In this case the guy's skill helped him, but it could have just as easily read the other way.
Really for me the answer is yes, I would kick. I have a very powerful front kick. But in reality no one can really answer this question with out being there. People always say what they would or would not do but we never truly know until we have the adrenaline pumping through our veins and can only sense the fear of what may be about to happen. Its called fight or flight. People act differently and most people have no idea what there adrenaline will dictate them to do.
Mostly though I think I would stick with gannoways answer. By far the best answer I have ever seen him give
As many people have said all along, grappling does not work well when there are two or more attackers.
Now if he had just kicked the guys in the knees, they would have stayed put until the cops arrived. "Kick 'em low, down they go"
Well,I dont know how you cna train o take care of multiple people (more than 2) or with when they have knifes or guns. The next best thing is Martial arts/Combat sports. I meen how else will you have another shot without going to jail?
ya, i would kick in a mugging situation. the mugger wouldnt be expecting it, and also, TKD kicks are very effective.
to the crotch, most definitely
Me persoally not unless I had absolutely no choice would I do such a thing. Generally I would use my cell phone and call authorities and yell to them cops are on the way better beat it!
Getting involved in some one elses situation when you do not know all thta is going on can turn bad on you and dangerous. So unless it was family or loved ones I would probably call the cops.
Interesting video too. Yes I think TKD works under the right teacher as any style. All styles are good the teacher is what makes it good or bad. So if you were taught right and have good set of nerves it will work on the street.
IF I had no choice I would use my surroundings and anything I could use with length even my belt to fight against a knife.
Two against one, one mugger has a knife and you have no weapon. Let me think.....I would run as fast as I can...
Clowns...just because I advice some "tough guys" to fight doesn't mean I like to fight. I know my limitation.
Man this is a tough one to answer. I studied TKD many years ago (and Hapkido as well) and I still use some of the kicks in Muay Thai / MMA sparring, so I find it useful. In a street fight with an armed assailant? I'd be likely to bail out and run if possible. If not, yes - kicking would definitely be an option - groin, knee, whatever target I could fnd that was open. I kick realy hard (thank you Master Lee for the kicking drills) and I know I could really injure someone with a proper kick. Forget about a triangle choke or plum clinch against a guy with a knife though... I'd try to do whatever I could to survive and escape.
I have trained with some Kali practicioners working on disarms and knife counters - I believe the best of them would STILL be injured in a full force knife mugging despite their traning. They would know how to minimize the injury, but still...severe injury or death is possible in any serious situation like this.
With regards to the comments on luck, I have to say luck is a definite part of "real" fighting - but training definitely increases your chances of capitalizing on an opening and minimizing an unfortunate position.
But there is no question that BJJ, MT are not the only valid arts. Any fighting art that sharpens your reflexes and teaches you sound protection is a benefit in a self defense situation. It's all about maintaining composure, and most types of training will certainly help there.
I've said before that each of us is taught that our art is the best. If that wasn't the case - why train in it? I believe that inexperienced guys (and gals) don't have the breadth of experience to see the strength in other approaches, so they bash on them. (But the best art for a mugging is Airbending - most muggers can't take the fight to the air or defend a chi-ball attack!)
Look he got skills and he also got LUCKY...plain and simple. He came upon three dumb dumbs, spanked them and got away. Against three hardened seasoned criminals? I would have a hard time believing he could get away with just a cut pinky. Street fights are not the same as textbook dojang sparring sessions. Anything can happen. Even the best martial artist can get killed. I know from personal experience kicking someone on the street can go 50/50. In one instance, kicking the guy worked and in another instance, the guy didn't even flinch. He promptly gave me a knot in the head for my troubles.
I think the guy got lucky.
The psychology of "not being a victim" is the best art around.
This is why;
He did not know if there was a 3rd mugger standing back with a gun in case something went wrong. If so he could have been killed, or a stray bullet could have killed someone else(hard to feel like "The Man" when you just got a child killed so you could be a hero and save your pocket money).
I don't see what TKD had to do with anything. Obviously The kicking arsenal in Muay Thai would have sufficed and even offered a greater emphasis on realistic kicking techniques.
I agree that Muay Thai and BJJ are not the only arts worth studying. But, I will say that in a world of McDojos, fake Arts,and even faker masters, Muay Thai and BJJ are hard to beat for real effectiveness and even more, real results.
I don't think it's about being "brainwashed". I think it's about whether the majority of martial arts out there today "Deserve" respect. As most people believe, Respect is earned, and many martial arts have just not done so.
Riding on the vapors of a 1000 year old reputation for being effective does not make it so. Tales about master so and so jumping tall buildings or shooting flames from his behind is not going to help a kid win a fight against the local bully.
Despite the tone of my comments or people claiming I am a nut hugger and brainwashed Muay thai/mma guy. I studied TKD and Aikido for years, Yes, even to the level of "oooh I'm a Black Belt". I found that My Muay Thai mixed with BJJ/Judo is the best combo I can find. Thats what I recommend to folks who really don't want to waste any time learning ineffective techniques.
Aikido was a beautiful art and I even can Identify traces of it in my MMA. But Effective? no. High minded and elegant is how I would describe it. TKD, no sorry, a total waste of time compared to other kicking arts such as Muay Thai.
So hey kids! if you can't train the real deal(Muay Thai/BJJ) go for Judo and boxing or Wrestling/Kyokushinkai karate(even Korean born Mas oyama didn't give TKD a look). I think the concept of of a effective martial art is one that has realistic basic striking/kicking and realistic take down and submission. Everything else is fluffy ninja,flying through the air,tiger style poo poo.
No comments:
Post a Comment